Training Improvement Café - Episode 04: Train for real change with Dirk Bannenberg
In Roy's Training Improvement Café, Roy de Vries, Learning Innovator at aNewSpring, explores how people really learn and what we, as training experts, can learn from that to keep improving our training.
In this fourth episode of the Training Improvement Café, Roy talks with Dirk Bannenberg
💡 Spoiler alert: change doesn't happen from one day on another.
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Show notes
Episode 04 – Dirk Bannenberg on Training for real change
In this episode of the Training Improvement Café, Roy sits down with Dirk Bannenberg, co-founder of Nobi Learning and a seasoned trainer who’s worked with some of the biggest training providers in The Netherlands. Together, they explore how to turn training from a one-off event into a catalyst for lasting behaviour change.
💡 Spoiler alert: Real change starts before the training day…and continues long after.
About Dirk
Dirk Bannenberg is co-founder of Nobi Learning and an experienced trainer with a background in teaching, corporate training, and change management. Passionate about making training meaningful, he combines adult learning, leadership, and change management principles to help organisations achieve lasting behavioural change.
What you'll learn in this episode
Why friction and discomfort in training can actually be a good sign
How to uncover the “question behind the question” when clients ask for training
Practical nudges that make behaviour change stick (from bathroom stickers to handwritten notes)
Why training is more like a campaign than a one-day event
How to keep participants motivated long after the training ends
The power of the ADKAR change model (Awareness, Desire, Knowledge, Ability, Reinforcement)
Why managerial support and feedback are non-negotiable for real transfer
What Dirk learned from change thinker Thijs Homan about culture and “petri dishes”
Resources & inspiration
Thijs Homan (organisational culture)
Quick tips to apply right away
Add small nudges before and after training (emails, reminders, stickers, handwritten notes).
Frame training as a campaign: build anticipation, involvement, and follow-up.
Ask participants: “When will this day be a success for you?” and use their answers.
Use the “Better Not” exercise to surface resistance to new behaviours.
Don’t shy away from feedback when attempts at new behaviour fail. It fuels growth.
Episode highlights
[00:01:00] – Why intrinsic motivation is non-negotiable for real behaviour change.
[00:04:59] – Uncovering the real learning need behind client requests.
[00:08:01] – The challenge of involving managers and starting with nudges.
[00:10:50] – From bathroom stickers to pre-training mail packages: creative nudges that stick.
[00:14:45] – The “Better Not” exercise to surface resistance and spark reflection.
[00:16:37] – Why managers must give feedback—even when it feels uncomfortable.
[00:20:02] – Designing impactful learning experiences on limited budgets.
[00:22:04] – Applying the ADKAR change model to training.
[00:25:32] – Why reinforcement at 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months really matters.
[00:26:00] – Petri dishes of meaning: how real change happens at the coffee machine.
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Full transcript
Roy: Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Training Improvement Cafe. In this series, we explore different ways on how you can improve your training, and we do that based on our GROWTH Training Improvement Model, an evidence informed framework with which you can assess your training and decide on next steps to take and to improve specific parts to really make sure you help people learn. If you want to have more information on that, go check out the show notes where we'll put the link.
And in today's episode, I'm joined by Dirk Bannenberg. He is a highly seasoned trainer and started off, well for a short period as a teacher, then worked at some of the biggest training providers in The Netherlands, and now since a couple of years co-founder of Nobi Learning. Welcome, Dirk.
Dirk: Yeah, thank you.
Roy: So we met a couple of months ago and what struck me most during our meeting was your passion to get everything on the table. So to really deep dive into an organisation and to make sure that, well also make your customers maybe feel a little bit uncomfortable, but also give them the feeling that you're a real partner and you really want to help them to change their behaviour and make the next step.
But the main question that I still had in my mind was: but how do you get from well, surfacing those problems to real behaviour change, to really making sure that the training works? So that's something that I'd like to discover in this episode of the Training Improvement Cafe.
But before we dive into the content, I think it's good for our audience to get to know you a little bit better.
Dirk: Yeah. Yeah. And as you said, a very short-lived career as a teacher. What I noticed there, I had thirteen, fourteen-year-olds and I studied French, so I taught the French language. And like for about 28 to 30 fourteen-year-olds who don't necessarily want to learn that language, it's hard because they're totally not motivated.
I also did a class of eight girls who were studying for their final exam, and they were highly motivated. So that's already, without even realising it at the time, that's what stuck to me is like, okay, and it stuck with me through the years that like intrinsic motivation to want to learn something is so important.
It's vital for anybody to, if we're talking about behavioural change, for somebody to change their behaviour, you need to have that spark within, you need to have that inner motivation. 'Cause yeah, otherwise I can train what I want, but it's not going to happen.
Roy: And is it also the thing that you really like about being a trainer? Because I can imagine as a trainer you still get people that are not necessarily motivated.
Dirk: Yeah. Yeah. Throughout the years. Yes. Like, there's so many examples of like, people literally coming into the training and me asking them, okay, so when is this day going to be a success for you? "When it's five o'clock." Okay. And it's okay, you still need to start the day. So, I mean, it's funny, but also it's a shame that, how does somebody end up in a training like that?
Roy: So there's a bit of friction.
Dirk: Yeah. Learning sometimes comes along with a bit of friction and that's that feeling of uncomfortableness. I don't necessarily like it, but I feel that if we are there and if we're both able to recognise that, okay, so it's uncomfortable for you, it's uncomfortable for me as well as a trainer, but let's dive into it together. That puts me into my role as well as a trainer, and that's what I like about it.
And that's also with my clients. So I like to work in partnerships with clients. And we were talking about it off-camera is like being yourself helps. So when I am able to be myself and to ask those challenging questions, and I know why I want to ask those challenging questions and if the other person accepts those questions from me then we can build something strong. So it requires partnership, I think, with both my participants, but also with my clients.
Roy: Yeah. And how do you, 'cause this takes some time before you get there. I mean, getting to those core deep challenges that people have and then designing something around it. How do you do that upfront?
One of the first categories of our Training Improvement Model is the goals and objectives. Setting that from the start, from the beginning. But if you want to get those goals and objectives from the participants while talking with them, that's what I hear when I hear you talk.
How do you do that with your customers at the start?
Dirk: When it comes to defining what the question is behind the question or to define what the learning need is. In 2017, I completed a study change management, and I think a lot of the concepts that are being used in change, are concepts that we also find in our field.
Usually when clients come to us, they come with a training question, which is basically a training solution to a question that they had earlier on. They wanted to develop some behaviour or they wanted to move into a certain direction when it comes to leadership, and they've done their research and then they've partially found an answer, and that's where we get invited at the table.
So can you help us developing those particular skills or this particular mindset? And what we do in those conversations is that we also, and to go back to that very practical example, I sometimes ask the question. Okay, so let's say we start training now. How big are the chances that I'm going to get that participant in my training who says, I don't know why I'm here?
So that's a topic that at least we would like to discuss in the first conversations that we have with our prospects or our clients.
Roy: And what do you do then? If they say, well, do you just dive deeper into the problem? Or do you sometimes say, well, if that's the attitude that we're going to get in our training this is not for us?
Dirk: That's not what we do. We wouldn't say no, but it's something to investigate. I think there's a lot of levers that you can pull or that you can influence. And one of the levers that you can influence is perhaps the learning objectives that you set out.
So if we are going to do this learning intervention, do you want it to be, do you want people to develop a certain skillset or a certain mindset, or do you want to develop their knowledge? And if we found out that there's maybe participants that aren't necessarily motivated to attend to the training, at least let's circle around that with a client and see what could be the root cause of it. And is there a way that we can prevent it, that somebody comes to a training not motivated?
And what we've done in the past is that we've built in the option of choice in
certain training programmes that we developed so that not everybody feels that they are necessarily obliged to attend all the trainings. They can match.
Roy: Give them some autonomy.
Dirk: Yeah, give them autonomy.
Roy: And have you ever had a situation, because we just talked about how you dive deep into the organisation, into a problem, try to get that on the table. Have you ever gotten some resistance from your customers saying, whoa, if we go there, that's not what I want to do, where I want to go. Might be confronting to those persons themselves as well.
Dirk: Let me give you an example that always clarifies it. One of the clients, we set out a new training programme for their consultants and the learning specialist from the client wanted to install a culture of learning within the organisation.
And in my core beliefs I think that the organisational structure and the organisational culture need to support the learning. If you talk about the 12 Levers of Learning Transfer, do participants have the time and the space to practice what they were taught in the training? And is their manager, for example, supporting that by giving active feedback?
And we knew that wasn't the case, and we knew that the managers weren't involved with the learning process. And we didn't want to push for it. So we could have said: No! You have to, we have to organise a session for the managers. But we knew that 75% of the managers wouldn't show up for that session.
So we said, you know what, let's just start with the training. And then throughout the training we will see what ripple effect the training will have on the rest of the organisation. And at the end of the training it, and it wasn't necessarily something you want to hear, but at the end of the training, some of the participants said: yeah, my manager didn't even know that I was gone for a day for training.
Okay. So we took that to heart. And for the second round, we installed like small nudges for the managers. So we created, and it's so simple, we just literally sent an email a day before the training, you know: one of your staff
members is going on training tomorrow. These are the topics and when they get back from the training, ask them these three questions.
So that's literally one mail, which already sort of heightens the involvement of managers. So we didn't build a huge programme for the managers to support their participants, but we started with small nudges. So we're following the pace of the organisation. Even though in my heart I would, yeah, I would like the CEO to be involved. And that's sometimes not the case.
Roy: No. But I can also imagine, because you're working with partnerships, you're in there for the long term. That it's also starting small, but gradually involving more people within the organisation, getting them onboard.
Dirk: Sometimes we literally start with a very small learning intervention.
Roy: Can you give an example? Like, well just now, the email, of course.
Dirk: Email, for another client we put stickers on the mirrors in the bathroom. It was about feedback and it was about reflecting on your own behaviour. So small nudges like that.
It's like when you're having dinner. In the old days, they had like amuse bouche, which is French for like an appetiser, something to start your appetite. And sometimes with learning, it's like that. So give people a small nudge, let them have a success experience. Let them smile, maybe, have a bit of fun. And then that creates curiosity to maybe want more.
Roy: Yeah, it's almost like a campaign. So you're campaign marketer that thinks about how can we campaign our training within the organisation and what kind of nudges can we use to get them excited?
Dirk: I was just telling your colleague that I got up a bit early this morning 'cause I was writing a training proposal and the word campaign would've been really useful.
But it is that, it's exactly that. What we are trying to do is we're trying to prolong the learning route. So not necessarily that training, but start like two or three weeks before the training.
In some cases we made little post packages with like a plastic reflective mirror on the inside, a little postcard, a learning journal, a pen, and a little handwritten message by the trainer who's going to give the training. And these people would start in that training three weeks later, and we sent it to their homes.
So those are all, like small activities or interventions that we do to prolong the learning route, if you will.
Roy: A change.
Dirk: Yeah. To change the behaviour, not just on the training day itself, but before and after as well.
Roy: Yeah. And how do you see, is that well received by the participants as well?
Dirk: Yeah. Yeah. So people, I mean, obviously it's always, people like it when they feel like they're seen. So it's like acknowledging, somebody's personality if they get like a personal package at home with a handwritten message specifically just for them, so it makes, feel seen, it makes him feel valued.
And in other cases with other nudges that we do it makes people smile. Like it sticks. If it stands out, it sticks and people remember it. And that's what you want. And sort of like you want it ingrained into the brain.
Roy: So that really helps to drive that behaviour change as well during the whole process.
Dirk: Yeah. It supports.
Roy: Supports.
Dirk: Yeah. I wouldn't say it drives, but it supports the brain to keep on thinking: oh, yeah, yeah. So I not only have the intention, but I keep on getting reminders that I can also put that intention into practice. So two days after the training, we send a little reminder. Two weeks after the training, we nudge and two months after the training as well.
And we literally, I remember us sending a mail to participants two months later, like: okay, without opening your notes. So plan a coffee date with one of your buddies from the training. Without opening your notebooks, discuss with each other: what do you remember of what you learned two months ago?
Roy: And I can imagine, 'cause one of the last categories of our Training Improvement Model is Habits. I believe it's important to focus on that as well. Not just finish your training, it's up to you. And then people will probably fall into old behaviour again, but I think having that relationship after the training for a longer period of time. So I like your two weeks, two months analogy. That's really important.
Dirk: We also look at it during the training and this is literally an exercise that we do. Better Not, the exercise is called Better Not. So we just established, in a conversation, if you want to be more assertive, this is what you have to do. And then we split up the group into two groups and we think, okay, think of a thousand reasons why you're never going to apply this new skill. And we make it into a bit of a competition. Like in a sort of a lighthearted way, we also get to some of the root causes why it's so difficult to change behaviours, but in a lighthearted way. Because it's always fun to be, I'm not going to do it because my boss won't like me anymore.
And then after, that's the first part of the exercise and the second part of the exercise, okay and one reason why it will be beneficial to show this new behaviour. And that is sort of the, the anchor that we send them away with to start practice it in real life.
We scratch beneath the surface to also look at what's going on in the brain. Why people are maybe reluctant to show some new behaviour. In a sort of lighthearted way.
Roy: What are exercises that you found really work after a training? 'cause you know, when we talk about habits. They grow over time. They have to be new routines that you build in. What are things that you see working in your daily practice to make sure that that works? 'cause I think it's one of the biggest criticisms when it comes to training. People go to training, they learn something new. They go back, like you said, with the support of the manager that's gone. Organisation doesn't support it, and they fall into that old behaviour. But how can you, as a training provider, really help those organisations? Apart from those nudges to make it stick?
Dirk: By discussing what we're discussing with the organisation. So discussing the importance of managerial support, by discussing the importance of allocating time to practice, but also give feedback on that. So not just let somebody practice, but also give feedback. Also, if somebody is trying something and doesn't succeed, then it's still important to give them that feedback as well. What I see happening often is that a manager then thinks, yeah, but he's just been through a training and he's doing his best. I don't want to rain on his parade. But it's vital to also when it doesn't succeed to give that clear and honest feedback because that also supports growth. Knowing, okay, so there I was successful, in that area I wasn't as successful. And let's talk about it, as long as it comes from a learning point of view and not from a you're doing it wrong and from a punishment point of view.
Organisations they spend a lot of money on training and learning activities and yeah, that conversation usually helps as well. It's like, how can we, you know, this is the money you spend and obviously you want impact. So how can we make that impact as big as possible?
Roy: And what are you doing when there's not a big budget?
Dirk: I'm in the middle of one right now. I got challenged by a client who said it's a scale-up organisation and their learning and development budget isn't that big at the moment, and she has 200 people that need to be trained. So she challenged me like, what can you do within these budgetary constraints? And I drove home and I didn't necessarily see options straight away, but then after a good night's sleep, I was like, no, I know if we do this and if we do that, maybe within those constraints, I can still provide a learning solution.
However, we talked about it. Do you want those 200 people to acquire a new skill or, so is it more of a skill set or is it more of a mindset? And she goes, no, this is more of a mindset. It's about resilience. Resilience during change. And I felt like if, when we were able to break it down so they don't necessarily have to learn a new skill. But we do like them to walk away with: Hey, this is how I respond to change. And on a resilience scale from zero to ten, I'm somewhat over here.
And with me asking that specific question in that conversation, does it need to be skillset or a mindset that you want to change? It already opened up more possibilities. You know, with the experience that we have, like I have all of my
colleagues, who are willing to think along and we already came up with a quite nice two hour programme.
Roy: That sounds like a lot of fun.
Dirk: It is.
Roy: Having those colleagues around you, brainstorming within those constraints and then trying to break out of these constraints as well.
Dirk: Yeah, but you don't necessarily always have to go big in a training programme. Sometimes it can also be a very small learning activity. And this is not necessarily a small learning activity because it's a big group, but you know, with a pair discussion for a couple of minutes with, like a story tell in there about resilience, with creating three personas who all three differently respond to change. And then, okay, so to which persona do you feel attracted to the most? And then give them some tips on what you could also do from a growth mindset.
Before you know you have a two hour programme for 200 people, within a limited budget. I feel confident that they will walk away because I also already thought of like a physical takeaway. You remember those keep calm and mm-hmm? So I'm looking at coffee mugs that say keep calm and stay resilient and like a small giveaway, but that they will have a keepsake and they will have that little reminder.
Roy: Yeah. When it's going to be on their desk they're going to feel in their gut, this is not good for me, they're going to look at the mug. And they're, well talking about nudges, right?
I love the insight on the open conversation. I love the insight on the small nudges. It doesn't always have to be big. You can always, well start small at least and that also already has quite some impact.
Dirk: Yeah. And how can we make the learning route as long as possible? No.
Roy: Without maybe for the learner making it feel like it's a long learning route.
We've been talking a lot about behaviour change. Are there specific inspirations that you get from the area of expertise when it comes to change?
Dirk: Why we started Nobi Learning was that we wanted to combine the knowledge we have on how adults learn, which is what my business partner does, combined with leadership, be it personal leadership, but also leadership in organisations, because we feel that managers and leaders are crucial in learning processes within an organisation.
That's something that, the knowledge we share between us, combined with change management, and that's something that I accomplished this study in a couple years ago.
Basically, we look at, whenever we get a training question from a client, we look at it as a change process. Because the matter of fact is that the training usually is the solution to a question or the answer to a question. And it's usually a question about we need to change our leadership within the organisation. Our managers need to become coaching leaders rather than transactional leaders.
Any type of training implies that there needs to be a change in behaviour. So that's why we, in the conversation with our clients, I draw a lot of inspiration from the things that I learned during change management during those studies.
And one of the examples that I, or one of the theories or acronyms, if you will, is the ADKAR acronym, which stands for Awareness, Desire, Knowledge, Abilities and Reinforcement. So any change process you go through, those are the levers that you need to have a look into to make the change successful.
So it starts with awareness. Everybody needs to be aware of the fact that we need to change. Then the next step is that we all need to want to change, the desire. And you can only start with knowledge and abilities once everybody's on board.
And remember we talked about that participant that came into a training and you know "When is this day a success for you? When it's five o'clock!". Or: "What do you want to learn to do? I dunno. I dunno what I want to learn because my manager sent me."
If somebody doesn't have the intrinsic motivation, like the 14-year-olds who didn't want to learn French, they're not going to learn and kids or adults, there's no difference. People need that intrinsic motivation. So the desire to want to learn something is so crucial.
Basically, we look at every training question that we get through that lens. That acronym of ADKAR. Are people aware? Do they have the desire? And then we can look at the knowledge and the abilities and the reinforcement. So what we were talking about earlier as well is how do you make sure that people keep practicing that new behaviour?
So reinforcing that behaviour. And we do that sometimes through nudges. Two days, two weeks, two months.
I've also proposed to a client where we come together after three months and we organise a session with the team. Okay, so we set out objectives. We've practiced for three months. What did we set out to practice? What have we practiced? What was successful, what wasn't successful? And what does it mean for the objectives that we're going to set now?
Roy: It's a loop.
Dirk: It's a loop, yeah. It's a constant loop. So that's the reinforcement part where you, if you want to make a change successful, you need to pay attention to all those five letters.
Roy: That sounds like a good takeaway. Any other inspiration you draw from?
Dirk: Thijs Homan! He's like, I adore that man. No, I don't know him personally, but...
Roy: His work. You adore his work?
Dirk: His work. His work. He eloquently describes the impact that organisational culture has on change, but also structure, formal structures, but also informal structures. He talks about petri dishes. And I had it in a session that I was doing last week as a facilitator. That one remark that somebody makes within a session can start to lead its own life. And he calls it petri dishes.
And he says that within any organisation, and I hopefully I'm quoting it the right way, within any organisation, groups of people come together and give meaning to words, sentences, thoughts, within the organisation. And as a change consultant, if you will, you need to be able to find out what those different meanings are. And that doesn't happen in the boardroom, but it happens at the coffee machine.
What for me, why it's so inspirational is it's, it reinforces my idea that change isn't, it never happens or rarely happens top down, but it happens within the organisation, between people and that's why it's so important in our partnerships with our clients, 'cause we get those people in training rooms, to hear the signals, to hear what's being said, to hear what's not being said, and to, without breaching trust, bring those signals back to the organisation.
Roy: Co-create.
Dirk: To co-create. Yeah. And I think that we owe it to our craft or to our, we owe it to our métier, to say it in French, because I don't know the English word, to give the signals back to the organisation.
And that's why I like Thijs Homan so much because he gives meaning to the word culture and structure and how that influences an organisation, but then also how it influences change processes and you have to have an eye for that. And that's what we incorporate in the relationships that we have with our clients.
Roy: Thanks for sharing all your insights.
But before we round off this conversation, there's always one thing I want to do in our Training Improvement Café. Yes. And that is asking you a random question based on a number from one to 10.
So I've got 10 questions here. I picked them out, especially for you. So you could probably answer them all in a good way. But we'll see. So if you pick a number between one to 10, which number would it be?
Dirk: Number seven.
Roy: Alright. What tiny detail in your work do you probably spend way too much time at?
Dirk: Tiny detail in my work. You got me thinking, because I'm so much of like a high level person that I don't lose myself into details too much. I should do it more often.
Roy: Because maybe there's this one thing that you think: this always takes me way too long. Even it can also be a high level thing. Because you're just passionate about that.
Dirk: Well, okay. When you add the word passionate to the equation, it's like simpler. So in the training proposals that we do, and maybe that's because I'm not very knowledgeable on it, but I like to lose a lot of time on layout to sort of make it appealing to the eye. I make a lot of our proposals in PowerPoint and like this morning as well, I feel like, you know, insert shape and then rounded off edges and they all need to be the same and so I lose way too much attention or time into trying to do that.
Roy: I think that's very recognisable to everyone watching or listening.
Dirk: But at the same time, it's part of our signature as well. So I want us to exude that quality, not only in the learning interventions that we present, but also in the conversations that we have, which sometimes make them challenging, but also in like, in everything, in the layout and how we present ourselves.
Roy: If people are interested: Nobi Learning. They can go to your website. If this all resonates with them and they're looking for a training programme.
Thanks, Dirk. Thank you for sharing all your wisdom.
Dirk: Thank you for having me.
Roy: Yeah, of course. You're most welcome.
Dirk: You make me sound so old.
Roy: No, no, no. Well,
Dirk: Seasoned, seasoned.
Roy: Seasoned trainer sharing all his wisdom, right?
And thanks everyone for listening or watching to this episode of the Training Improvement Café. I hope you enjoyed it. Let us know what you think, and hope to see you at the next one as well. Have a great day and keep on improving!
