Training Improvement Café - Episode 02: Digital conversation simulations

In Roy's Training Improvement Café, Roy de Vries, Learning Innovator at aNewSpring, explores how people really learn and what we, as training experts, can learn from that to keep improving our training.

In this second episode of the Training Improvement Café, Roy sits down with psychologist and DialogueTrainer founder Michiel Hulsbergen. Together, they explore how conversation simulations can boost learning transfer, help professionals build real confidence, and make complex interpersonal skills more trainable and scalable.

💡 Spoiler alert: If you think your training is effective because learners feel confident, think again.

Watch the full episode below

Just hit 'play' or scroll down for the show notes and the full transcript.

Episode 02 – Michiel Hulsbergen on Training Conversational Skills with Digital Avatars

In this second episode of the Training Improvement Café, Roy sits down with psychologist and DialogueTrainer founder Michiel Hulsbergen. Together, they explore how conversation simulations can boost learning transfer, help professionals build real confidence, and make complex interpersonal skills more trainable and scalable.

💡 Spoiler alert: If you think your training is effective because learners feel confident, think again.

About Michiel

Michiel Hulsbergen is a psychologist with a background in business administration and decades of experience in conversation skills training. He started out as a training actor before founding DialogueTrainer, a company that creates simulation-based learning environments for soft skills. With over 20 years in the field and a decade focused on learning technologies, Michiel brings a rich perspective on the intersection of psychology, emotion, and technology-enhanced learning.

What you'll learn in this episode:

• Why Michiel thinks traditional text-based training can create false confidence

• How interactive simulations make learners more aware of complex interpersonal dynamics

• Why emotion and believability are essential ingredients in learning transfer

• How DialogueTrainer’s tools are used to support real-world leadership development

• The impact of avatar-based practice versus real-life role play

• The surprising power of immersive learning to surface implicit skills and emotional insight

Featured Simulation: Game-Changing Leadership

Roy and Michiel explore a live leadership simulation that helps managers improve coaching skills through realistic dialogue. The demo showcases:

• Building rapport and guiding conversations strategically

• Subtle emotional cues in avatar interactions

• Reflective decision-making in high-stakes leadership moments

Quick tips to apply right away

• Don’t just aim for confidence—aim for realistic confidence. Simulations can challenge learners’ assumptions and surface hidden gaps in their skills.

• Use emotion as a signal, not a distraction. Train learners to reflect on their emotional responses during conversations to better understand behaviour.

• Combine text and simulation. Reading builds understanding, but simulations provoke reflection and make learning stick.

• Start with practice, not theory. Use immersive scenarios to confront learners with realistic challenges before offering explanatory models.

• Design for reflection, not just performance. Include moments where learners pause, assess options, and predict outcomes.

• Role-play isn't dead—it's scalable. Use avatar-based role-play to create safe, repeatable practice environments that mimic real pressure.

Michiel’s sources of inspiration

• Keith Keating – The Trusted Learning Advisor

• Paul Ekman – Facial expression and emotion theory

• Lisa Feldman Barrett – Constructed emotion and behavioural science

• Nico Frijda – Emotions as promoters of interest

• Frans de Waal – Primate behaviour and social interaction

Want to learn more?

• Visit dialoguetrainer.com to explore the tools and research behind DialogueTrainer.

• Read The Trusted Learning Advisor by Keith Keating for a call to arms for modern L&D professionals.

• Look up Frans de Waal’s Chimpanzee Politics for behavioural insights with a smile.

Listen to the full episode:

• Spotify

• Apple Podcasts

We'd love your feedback!

What did you think of this episode? Share your thoughts or questions with us at roy@anewspring.nl or tag us on LinkedIn.

Don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with your fellow learning pioneers.

Roy: Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Training Improvement Cafe, where we dive deeper into different topics that surround training, that involve training to inspire you and to help you to improve your training.

But most of all, also to get to know the guests that we have here. And today I am joined by a very cool guest. I've known him for quite a while already. I've been an instructional designer myself, so I immediately start to get personal with you, an instructional designer myself.

And back in the day when I created one of my first projects, I worked together with DialogueTrainer because we worked on a project for front office employees at the University of Utrecht, and we wanted them to practice with something that could happen in real life, but we didn't wanna simulate it in the classroom, we wanted to make it scalable. We wanted them to practice with something that could happen and to give them that emotion as well that they could experience if that thing happened in real life.

So that's how I got in touch with Michiel. Welcome Michiel here in Rotterdam.

Michiel: Good to be here Roy.

Roy: And I invited him to be the guest to the Training Improvement Cafe, because I really want to deep dive into your story behind DialogueTrainer, but also why your passion, where your passion for L&D comes from. And I know that you have a lot to, to share. So, thanks.

Michiel: And we have time.

Roy: And we have time, definitely. Can you maybe in short one, two minutes introduce yourself to the audience, to the people that don't know you yet.

Michiel: Yeah, so I'm Michiel Hulsbergen and I'm a psychologist and I studied business administration and I have a long background in conversation skills training.

Starting as a training actor, actually when I was 18 years old. After a little bit of television work, first invested some time in learning how to act, but then I realised at some point that I was a pretty lousy actor. And psychology and understanding human behaviour from that sense sounded a little more like a

potential for a career for me.

I studied psychology, then provided classroom trainings for a couple of years. Then at some point I realised that there's a, there was a lot of, there was a huge gap between how psychologists look at conversation skills and look at emotions and how organisations look at, for instance, emotions.

Psychologists say: emotions are functional information processing systems, so to say. Business administrators usually say emotions are in the way of rationality. So I spent a lot more time investing in sort of that gap in, knowledge. Also, the difference between those paradigms.

Studied Business Administration after that. Spent a couple of years doing emotion research. I was working towards a PhD, but then DialogueTrainer happened. And, and that, sounded like a very, worthwhile, time spent.

So I built a company, which now consists of 21 people and we are building conversation simulations, which of course have everything to do with my sort of background in role play.

Roy: Yeah. And I can imagine that your background as a psychologist also comes in very handy with developing those simulations.

Michiel: Absolutely. So that's one of the topics that I assume we'll dive deeper into. Of course, when it comes to, behaviour and conversations, there's a lot of implicit skill. And a lot of sort of, nuanced insights that direct our behaviour. And to build vocabulary to advance people in that requires providing them with learning interventions, but also reflecting and, developing the right theory to support learning. So yes, it has everything to do with each other.

Roy: But then of course those skills and that knowledge comes in very handy I can imagine when you started DialogueTrainer.

Michiel: Absolutely. And I can be quite specific about it.

So one of my most insightful moments when I was first starting to work as a training actor I was working with police officers. And I was still doing, acting school back then. And what struck me was when I was doing role play with police officers, those police officers were always completely believable in their acting.

And to me, that was so insightful. I mean, here I was as an actor trying to be completely believable, standing in front of a police officer who just was believable and didn't have any acting training at all. And what I concluded from that was that being believable has everything to do with what you strive for in a situation.

So if I'm truly committed to, helping you with your problem, then I'm believable in any interaction. Whether it be role play or any other type of interaction. But when I'm distracted in my role and I'm actually doing something else, yeah then it just becomes messy. So for me, conversation skills training is a lot about focus.

What are you actually there for? Whether that is in role play or as any professional in any role.

Roy: Yeah. And confidence? Also a part of this? Or is that not necessarily, 'cause I can imagine as a police officer, you also need to have a certain confidence when you approach people, you're in situations.

Michiel: Yeah, but I think, also another insight there, the confidence of the police officer also comes from the fact that they're in an environment where they're representing an organisation.

And this is for a thought experiment: if I have to set a boundary to somebody in an alley way, and I'm the only person there and they're the only person there, I'm not gonna feel very confident.

If you imagine there's two big guys standing behind you, or a very big woman standing behind you protecting you, that sort of changes your behaviour in that situation, if you think of it.

So I think that the confidence that you want police officers to have has everything to do with knowing what you're there for and also knowing that your backup exists.

Roy: Yeah, good point. Good point. And then when you started DialogueTrainer, what was your goal? What was your objective? What did you want to achieve?

Michiel: I wanted to show that it was doable. That's the most important objective. I wanted to prove that it could be done.

And I'll fill in a little bit more about that. The DialogueTrainer wasn't my first company where I developed online simulations. I tried to do something digital like that ever since, I think the first versions were 2005, 2006.

But all the time I had clients saying, this can't possibly work, because you can immediately tell it's fake. And I, felt all the time I can say the same thing about a novel or a Disney film. I can immediately say that's fake, but it doesn't matter. I'm still crying when I see Bambi struggle in the eyes.

Roy: Yeah. Who doesn't? Yeah.

Michiel: But what I realised is that I needed a sort of circumstance where I could validate this innovation in another way.

So when DialogueTrainer started, or the project that became DialogueTrainer started, that was at Utrecht University. I was doing research then and they were starting with an initiative to build a platform to train large groups of students. And for me, there was a perfect environment to both get some of the software funded.

So organise that we could actually develop something. I mean, there was a project there and I could just jump on that train. And also create a circumstance where we could really validate and really prove what worked about that software.

So, I also published research. 2015/16, we did research and then we could clearly prove what the difference is between the impact of, for instance, reading a text or watching a film or following a lecture and just interacting with the character. Even though the character Rita was very, very ugly, we still found that they challenged people. And that's essential I think, for learning, being challenged.

Roy: Absolutely. So you got some good, striking results from the research?

Michiel: We got serious results.

Roy: Can you elaborate on those results?

Michiel: The most important, really interesting result concerned self-efficacy.

So we found that people who read a text, if you compare people who read a text or people that play a simulation. Now, which one of the two will feel more confident about their own ability to navigate that conversation in real life well? I'm not going to challenge you with it too much.

But the readers of the text were convinced that it was easy. And that's how text works. If I read a text about something complex and I understand the text, then I'll conclude, yeah, that's okay, I can do that.

But if I then interact with an avatar and I have to give bad news in this sense. Then suddenly I start feeling these dilemmas involved. And then suddenly I start feeling a lack of control and I have to make complex decisions. Suddenly that's a lot harder.

Now, when we first presented this result to teachers as well, some of the teachers said, well, apparently a text is not such a bad instruction instrument then after all. And I was like, not if you, if building confidence is the thing you want to do, but you want help people navigate complex conversations. And then, it's actually, it's not optimal. I mean, building confidence if it's false trust that doesn't help anyone. That just creates new risk.

So that's the kind of evidence that we provided. And indeed, simulation made people feel much more unconfident about their own capacity, but then they were much more open to reading the text.

Roy: So together, combining.

Michiel: The combined interventions, that is actually where an optimal solution lies. And so problematising and then providing solutions and in interacting between the two.

Roy: And then practicing and...

Michiel: And then practicing and gaining new insights and becoming more confident. But then well based confidence. And just, also identifying with the skill involved, I think at some point.

Roy: And then you compare text to online simulations. Did you also compare real life simulations with the online simulations?

Michiel: That was very, the reason we, it took a long time for us to do that. It's because it's very hard to get organised.

Roy: I can imagine. Yeah.

Michiel: So a training actor is of course, quite a pricey intervention. But what we did do eventually is we did a lot of comparisons between people that role played and also performed during online interactions, so with avatars. And then also had their tests with actors.

So for instance, at Veterinary Science, they used to have review sessions where they sat in front of an actor and had to show their skill, and we could, illustrate that there was correlations between performance on the one and performance on the other means.

Roy: So can you say. You started off by saying, I wanted to prove that we could do it. Do you feel that you've proven that you could do it?

Michiel: Absolutely. So there, there's still a lot of uncharted ground here.

Roy: And I can imagine a lot of new technologies that can add to.

Michiel: But I think what we have now. I mean, we have the huge benefit of having worked in the field for, in my personal case, almost 20 years. Even 30 years when you take all the experiences with role play involved. But 10 years dedicated at technology development.

And now we're in a time where a lot happens with AI. And AI can do marvelous stuff, but we have a lot of understanding of how people learn to communicate.

Roy: Maybe we should give it a try.

Michiel: Shall we?

Roy: Because I think it's interesting to make it more tangible. And also for the people watching this from home. I mean, we've been talking about role playing, about conversational skills. But let's just give it a try. So I'll get my laptop. And then we can, I think we can play one or two of these simulations, right?

We can dive deeper into the game changing leadership demo. So I'm really curious, how that's gonna, how it's gonna work out. You can lead me through it a little bit? 'Cause I see a dashboard now. I hope that we made it that the people at home can also see it. What can I expect in this demo?

Michiel: Well, what you have in this learning environment is about game changing leadership. It's something that we built for a client in the US where they had a problem. And the problem was that, a lot of their leaders felt overworked and overwhelmed.

And usually when you look at an organisation, if leaders feel overworked and overwhelmed. Then what was the problem? That, either they're setting objectives that are unachievable or they're not delegating responsibilities well. So naturally in an IT organisation like this one, you want people to adopt responsibility so you can leave things with them.

So what we did is we build a learning environment that serves two purposes. It should both provide people with an interaction about coaching. And show them the dynamics of a coaching session. Like coaching your professional, your team members, your staff. And it should also persuade people that coaching is the way to go.

So what this learning environment does is you interact with a Dave who has a problem, and there are three fundamentally different approaches you can take.

In guiding them, you can be directive and tell 'em what to do. You can be inspiring and tell him that he's doing well and that you have complete faith in him. Or you can coach him and then you have a second simulation right after that's the one on the right there. Following your conversation on the left, you see the impact of that on his performance.

So if you've been very directive, he comes back to you and he says, well I tried what you said but it didn't work. If you've been very inspiring, then he says, well I tried what you said, and it seemed to work at first but then it didn't. And if you've been coaching him, then in the second role play, he says, you know, I tried something and I ended up trying something else that also worked. And what I actually want to tell you about is something that we might do with the other teams as well.

So that interaction both, you should experience with coaching. It shows you why you should coach. And in this learning environment, when we scroll down,

you can also see that there's an interaction there with a coach, an online coach, that guides you through a reflective process.

And then we have a new simulation with open speech, where actually the guardrails are removed and you speak to Dave using AI.

But let's first play with Dave. And I'll provide the introduction, so you don't have to do all that reading because there are some text to read there.

Dave is a project manager in your team. And this project is falling apart. The reason may be that he's making use of people from different teams, different parts of the organisation, and he's finding it difficult to sort of align them.

So usually what happens in the organisation is that then these people are also immersed in other processes, which their own leaders have said are more important than the project he's leading.

You interact with him, and you of course then want to build rapport first. In this case, you know that he's a keen father. He has young children who is very fond of. You can discuss that to build rapport.

But you also know that he's interacted with the steering committee where he was relatively successful. Now, of course, if your objective is to motivate him also in line with his work responsibilities, then that might be the subject you discuss with him. So we're going to do that, we're going to do it first with the work form where we provide answer options.

Avatar: Hi. You said you wanted to meet with me?

Roy: So now I have to choose.

Michiel: And your job is to each time choose one of these options there. You can also do other things sometimes if needed and add a suggestion. But, we'll just probably stay close to these validated answer options.

Roy: Well, I like to build rapport, as you said, so I always start with....

Avatar: Great. The kids just got back to school this week, so we're back to normal life.

Roy: So I just started with house and family. All the kids just got back. That's that's amazing. And let me see.

Michiel: So what do we do there? So you have three options here. One is that good let's take a moment to talk about your project or the progress of your project. So tell me how did things go with the steering committee? Or good, I'm sure they will take after their parents and excel.

Roy: Yeah, that would be my my first option.

Michiel: You feel inclined to...

Avatar: Well, thank you.

Michiel: So now you have built rapport with him. He's looking like he's relaxing in the conversation. He's happy. So you've achieved your first objective .

Roy: We can dive a bit deeper now. And for that I like to ask questions. Instead of, because the other options now make me feel like they're statements. So I wanna ask how things go with the steering committee.

Avatar: Thank you for asking. I think we managed. Even when handling the most critical questions. Of course, Bob was continuously questioning our assumptions.

Michiel: So now something in his expression has changed. So he's complaining a little bit about Bob. And of course we can dive into the interaction with Bob now, or we can advance the conversation. So what would you do?

Roy: I would go for the question option again. Do you see the value of his points though, even though it sounds maybe a bit too direct.

Michiel: It's a controlling question, it's kind of directive. Do you see the value of his point? You should. In this case I'll help you out bit. You really don't want to discuss the steering committee too much, so what you might as well do is it sounds like you're finding your way with Bob, you sort of navigate, navigate to this, et cetera.

Avatar: Yeah. Thanks. I'm learning. It's a challenge, but we are learning.

Roy: Alright, so now I got four options and I can see, I wanted to share how I see this team developing. That's great. Learning is vital. That's good to hear. I'd like to hear your opinion and I noticed your project is falling behind schedule, let's brainstorm some solutions. I want actually him to tell me that he feels that his project is falling behind schedule. Instead of me saying that, because that's also feels quite directive.

Michiel: So you don't want to tell him that he's falling behind. You wanna ask him how he thinks things are doing.

Roy: So that's this one. That's good to hear, I'd like to hear your opinion.

Avatar: Yeah, of course. I guess we are making progress, but not as much as we'd hoped.

Michiel: So now you can say, so your project is falling behind. Could you tell me more? Do you have an explanation for this? You see opportunities to fuel growth in your team?

Now let's take a moment. So the third one, you see opportunities to fuel growth in your team is the inspiring one. So that's the one aimed at sort of building motivation, but generic motivation.

Well, you don't need to build motivation with him. He's already motivated. Yeah. Do you have an explanation for this positions him as an expert. And you're asking him about it. So your project is falling behind, could you tell me more? Is doing the same thing.

Probably the best thing about So your project is falling behind, could you tell me more? is that it leaves it even more open. So do you have an explanation for this forces him to reflect on it already.

And Could you tell me more? just opens the conversation to him. So that's the most low key. Could you just share more information? So in this case, probably the first.

Avatar: Well, it seems people are not doing what I'm asking them to do. They say they don't have the bandwidth to get the job done. No one seems to go the extra mile. It doesn't feel like we are functioning as a high performing team.

Roy: You can see that it does something with him when he says that. So he feels...

Michiel: So you're now in a place where he's willing to share his struggles with you. He's not selling it to you. He's telling you, you know, I'm struggling.

Now, the interesting question is if I may ask. You're now playing. So what happens? How do you make your choices? How does it work?

Roy: I try to stick, stay close to what I would say in a situation like that. Who I am. But I'm also thinking, all right, what do I want to achieve? Where do I, and what does the system want me to achieve as well? That's also something that's going through my mind.

So I'm sort of reflecting on all these answer options to say, all right, what would I do? But also what would this system like me to do to get a good outcome? Sort of continuously navigating between these two options.

Michiel: Yeah, so what you say there, that's a reflection on how you are navigating that conversation. So, but a lot of that, of course is implicit. So what would the system expect me to do here relates to the sort of theory that's being shared with you. It's about coaching. So what's the most coaching approach?

It's also about, okay, what am I actually seeing here in front of me? This Dave guy? What works for him? What doesn't work for him? You have lots of assumptions about that. Well, what immersive learning is all about is having these assumptions and putting them to the test.

And sort of saying, you know, if I'm gonna say this then he probably behaves a little bit like that, then I'll do this. Well, my point is that is a reflective process. You're being strategic about the conversation, but at the same time it's very much informed by your emotions.

It's a truly emotional process as well. So when before we were discussing, is this real? The fact that you're immersed in this conversation, really sort of exploring your way through it, that's very real.

Roy: Definitely. And then Dave doesn't necessarily have to be in front of me, but still. It's real.

Michiel: You're still thinking about it. And of course, there's also this little thing that he's making facial expressions right now. And our brain has a tendency, of course, to tie meaning to those facial expressions. We actually have the capacity as humans to identify anywhere between 3,500 and 10,000 facial expressions.

He only shows 60 fundamentally different expressions. Which you can tell right away that right now there's a little bit of sadness.

Roy: I can see it in his eyes.

Michiel: Now looking at me, sort of like with a expectant look. And then he's losing his energy for a moment and thinking, oh, this doesn't work for me at all. So there's a lot happening there that you automatically tie meaning to. And then at the same time, you relate it of course, to your own objective in this conversation, which is to position him and sort of get his insights.

So we'll make a couple of more choices. Let's see how we go.

Roy: It doesn't feel like we're functioning as a high performing team. So I would say that sounds challenging. What have you tried to boost team's performance?

Avatar: Two weeks ago when this became clear, I did point it out to them. I first addressed it in a team session. I then approached each person individually to ask why they are not meeting their deliverables. What more can I do?

Michiel: So now he's asking you what more he can do. He's looking determined. He's looking a little bit irritated maybe even after sharing all the things that he has tried. So if we look at this from the perspective of motivation, what is he motivated to do right now if we look at him?

So Dave, this character, what is he motivated to do right now? What is he saying? What more can I do?

Roy: He maybe he, feels a bit desperate? I don't know. Out of control? I don't know.

Michiel: What usually happens when people commit to solving something is that people do that to the extent that they are actually able to solve the

challenge. And after that, they'll disengage. And of course, we both have our own individual backgrounds, but he could be a little bit disengaged saying, what more can I do?

So what we do now is we make sure to increase his engagement in the situation or his commitment to solve this challenge again. So how? When we do this, there are always more things you can do. That's a persuasive approach. Which is that going to motivate him? If he says, what more can I do? Probably not.

Roy: I don't think so.

Michiel: Could be true, but it doesn't matter. You don't reach him.

It sounds to me they are convinced, they are not convinced of the project's relevance.

That's sort of pointing something out to him that he might indeed know to. But I want him to solve this challenge and conclude this. So You already approach the team as a whole and individually? does something fundamentally different.

So what more can I do? And instead of contradicting him or informing him, I'm just going to say, so this is what you already tried. And then getting space again to expand on that.

Avatar: Yes, I did. I know they're capable people. There is plenty of evidence for that.

Michiel: And what immediately happens is if you sort of stress what he's already tried. He becomes much more open again and he starts sharing his own ideas about the team. And now from his facial expression, you can tell the conversation has deepened.

Now, all of this is not real. Dave is an avatar. There's a scenario behind this. But you see that your capacity to navigate this conversation relies on using theory, but also just using your own frame of reference and just getting immersed and just starting to explore different approaches.

And this conversation runs on a little bit longer, but I assume we'll close it now.

Roy: I think this gives a good impression.

Michiel: So that is a work form with avatars that we strongly believe is optimal when we want people to experience the dynamic of conversation. Yeah. So no work form does that better than with answer options.

Because you challenge people. It's very goal directed. You choose between those options. It's very easy to play together, because we're discussing which one of these would you choose. It's a very optimal work form for a training in conversation models for instance.

You wanna try something else?

Roy: Let's give it a go. Yeah.

Michiel: Now, at the end of this learning trajectory, after reflecting with a coach. We also get an interaction with Dave, and now we remove the guard rails.

So what we now have is a Dave who says whatever he thinks should be said. And you can say.

Roy: Whatever I think should be said.

Michiel: Whatever you think should be said.

And he responds to that openly. Now, behind this interaction is still a conversation model. So there's lots of, if the conversation goes here, that's what happens. If the conversation goes there, that's what happens.

Sometimes it does mismatch because it's a very efficient use of AI. I might also show you the newest advances later, but this is an open speech interaction.

Now, by now, you've of course gotten to know Dave already a little bit. You know a little bit what works for him.

Roy: Like his kids.

Avatar: Hi. You said you wanted to meet with me?

Michiel: Now, we have to activate the microphone.

Roy: Yeah. I was very curious how everything is, going with you and the kids. Are they doing well after their holiday? I think they talked about their holiday, right?

Avatar: The kids are doing great. Anyway, it's good to see you. So what did you wanna talk about?

Roy: I was curious about how your project is going at the moment. How are you feeling currently with the state of the project?

Avatar: Okay. Yeah, let's discuss this. I guess we are making progress, but not as much as we'd hoped.

Roy: Alright. And what, do you think, happened why the progress is not going as usual?

Avatar: Well, I think we are doing well. I guess we are making progress, but not as much as we'd hoped. It's just, I just don't feel in control.

Roy: All right. How come?

Avatar: Well, it seems people are not doing what I'm asking them to do. They say they don't have the bandwidth to get the job done. No one seems to go the extra mile. It doesn't feel like we are functioning as a high performing team.

Michiel: That sounds challenging.

Avatar: Yes, indeed it is.

Michiel: So let's stop it here.

Roy: It's difficult.

Michiel: It's very difficult.

Roy: Yeah. I mean, if you have the options, you have a lot of time to reflect. You have time to read you like, you can link different options to what you think would be best. But when he's just falling silent and I'm sitting here and I'm also

falling silent, makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. Bit awkward.

Michiel: Yeah. That's very, I think very recognisable. So the first thing that we started noticing when we started providing open speech sims is it's not easy engaging in such a role play. I mean, you don't have a training actor there, there's other people of course, in this case, literally other people watching you play.

But also for a moment, a question. Is this real?

Roy: Yes, but not real real. But it feels real because the emotions that I feel are sort of real. 'Cause I'm immersed.

Michiel: I also think that the reason you are immersed, there's no alternative to being immersed. Because you're sitting in front of an avatar and your objective right now is to legitimately interact with that avatar.

So the only way to do it is to get involved.

Roy: Let's go to the next part of our conversation. Go to rounding it off. And for that I wanna ask you some personal questions. And also questions that hopefully help other people, and where they can find inspiration.

Every learning professional probably looks at other people, looking for inspiration. I know that myself, I follow a lot of people on LinkedIn and get inspired, almost daily. If I ask you who is your biggest inspiration in Learning and Development, in training or what relates to training? So that people looking at this at home can maybe also follow that person.

Who would you say is your biggest inspiration?

Michiel: I gotta say, I find it a very difficult question, and that's not because there's not plenty of inspiring people around. Because there are many inspiring people around. But it's just that when you're working in the field of innovation, also touching on technology, there are so many things you need to read into.

So when it comes to emotion research, and taking that emotions direct our behaviour, especially in conversations. And then I think the important work is for instance Nico Frijda, the Dutch psychologist.

Roy: You already referred to earlier.

Michiel: He, for instance, is of the quote or the statement: emotions are promoters of interest, which is a very sensible way of looking at how emotions direct our behaviours, as promoters of interest. That's, a very interesting read.

And then you have, of course you have Paul Eckman, who does a lot about facial expression and basic emotion theory.

You have Lisa Feldman Barrett, who does a lot about the sort of sense making of emotions, the constructivist aspect. Who am I? Which also defines my behaviour. There's a lot of interesting, reading there.

I think I recently read Keith Keating's book, the Trusted Learning Advisor, which I really appreciated because it's one of the things I personally feel a little bit focused on is that learning advisors are usually very modest people who like to add value.

But I think it's time to take a different approach. Learning is an essential solution, especially in a time where there's so much change going around that you can't navigate this phase of the development of our society without learning a lot.

I mean, learning is an absolute necessity. Learning is a process where we as Learning & Development experts, professionals have to really step up our game. And that is, Keith Keating writes a bit about that which I really liked.

Then gamification is, of course, an interesting subject to touch on. Especially when you're working with simulations. So to what extent can we use gamification to when learning becomes frustrating, and it shall, to sort of move people beyond that by also making it fun to some extent.

So there's, a lot more to read, but those are the domains that I've, most enjoyed, I think.

Roy: Alright, we'll make sure that everyone you've just mentioned goes in the show notes so that everyone can look it up if they're interested.

You already mentioned, Trusted Learning Advisor by Keith Keating. Is there another book you think, oh, this inspired me as a learning professional to get to

the next level that you really took some, interesting takes from?

Michiel: A lot of the literature about gamification.

I'm failing to come up with titles. I mean the, last time when I really took time to really deeply read lots of books was when I was working on a thesis about 10 years ago. And it laid a lot of groundwork for me. I can absolutely advise any learning professional to take a couple of years to really study hard.

But recently, I too have lived a very busy life. But one thing that I might still share, I think the best author of all, just not the learning professional, is Frans de Waal, I think we should be very proud of his work on primates. On Monkeys. How they interact.

And that has been, to me, very insightful about how people interact with each other. Chimpanzee politics. It doesn't end there. He's unfortunately passed away two years ago, or one and a half years ago. But that's of all the readers, that's the one that fills my heart with warmth the most. That's all.

Roy: That's a very good inspiration. Yeah, I, agree with that one.

Last before we close off, I like to come up with a random question, and you can pick a number, one to 10. I don't know. Well, I know, but I don't exactly know which question is behind which number. So, and I'm gonna ask that question.

Michiel: Does everybody always say seven?

Roy: No.

Michiel: Okay, then seven.

Roy: Seven? Alright. If you could only teach people one skill for the rest of your life, what would it be and why?

Michiel: That requires focus. It'll be, that people should really trust their emotions as a source of information, especially in organisations. So when I look at behaviour of professionals, I notice all the time, that a lot of that behaviour is very sensible. Also, when it's not in line with the strategy.

But what people could learn is to take their emotions very serious and see for

themselves what's at stake in this situation for me. Why do I do the things that I do? What am I driven by? Both in terms of threats and opportunities as in terms of objectives that I might have on longer term versus what seems most relevant on this spot.

And that is, I think the world can really be helped by that sort of insight. To take our emotions very serious as promoters of interest, but then of course always relate them to an organisation strategy. Or relate them to a personal mission. So my single lesson to the world.

Roy: One skill.

Michiel: Would be: navigate your own emotions and take them serious as a source of information that is very important to organisations and to professionals, individually.

Roy: Thank you.

And thank you for watching this episode of the Training Improvement Cafe. I hope that you got a lot of insights out of this one. I definitely did.

So thanks Michiel for sharing all your.

Michiel: Likewise Roy.

Roy: Your, insights. And I hope to see you again at our next Training Improvement Cafe. And in the meantime, keep improving.